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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 31 Mar 2009 :  10:00:14  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
First a disclaimer, I am a non-believer, as I do not wish to post where I am out of bounds, your boards are your boards. So feel free to remove me if inappropriate.

I was wondering if this area is where concerns over christianity can be raised for response, or whether it is for christians only that are allowed to raise concerns.

Saying that, it is more questions I have over how christians (and generally any religion) rationalise various beliefs within themselves, and their churches, and not sure where to post.

cheers, and thanks for your patience ;)

Godless Heathen

davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 07 Apr 2009 :  22:11:31  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
pin drop

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 08 Apr 2009 :  22:29:34  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Luke 6:30 "Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back."

I'm asking for a reply, I'm sure someone has seen this.

Ok since I'd posted the above, for an example ... does this mean if I ask a christian for something, they have to give it to me? What happens if they knowingly don't follow this teaching?

A bit confused over why christians choose some elements of the bible and not others.

Godless Heathen
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PhilMac
Sub Lieutenant

Australia
10 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2009 :  18:04:47  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
gidday mate , well you got to read the few verses before and after to make good sense . So it says to LOVE YOUR ENEMIES in general , and do good to them ................... there are 5 meanings to the word love wether 1.words of affirmation , 2.spending quaility time with someone,3. giving gifts ,4. acts of service ,5. physical - sexual , the verse you speak GIVE TO EVERYONE WHO BEGS FROM YOU , AND FROM ONE WHO TAKES AWAY YOUR GOODS DO NOT DEMAND THEM BACK . Dave you forgot to add the verse 31 AND AS YOU WISH OTHERS WOULD DO TO YOU , DO TO THEM ALSO. So Christians arnt weak ,they like to be treated like anyone else , with respect , plus we can choose whom we give to ,the difference is we acknowledge there is a god in heaven and, thus is creation , not big bang theory. You have emotions , breath air , yet cannot see it ,BUT YOU CAN FEEL THEM , how much more is there a god in heaven , why do we celabrate Easter and Christmas , not just presents , party . Hey if you have a job ,earn money , but it yourself if you live on the street , see the salvos . So in general we are not here to be taken for a ride , just like you wouldnt like it ,Christians use WISDOM or meant to. Maybe goods were stolen from them , maybe the people were desparate so the others freely gave to them ................ doesnt mean we open our doors and tell anyone to help themselves. To want to know god and even understand aliitle about christianity you got to realise your a sinner like us all , meaning NOT PERFECT , have wicked thoughts , good thoughts , bible says every man's heart is desparately wicked and out of that acknowledging jesus died on the cross for all man kind , even the goodie too shoes. its only threw a perfect sacrafice can man kind be reconciled with god ,so jesus christ died for all man kind , his blood washes our sins away, if we acknowledge him and that he died for us , otherwise its hell bound. hey alla , budda, mohumid they all died , jesus christ died and rose from the dead.
hey by the way you too have pulled portions out of the bible and demand an answer . MATE YOU GET TO HEAVEN THROUGH JESUS CHRIST ,BY FAITH , and thats going to a church , prayer , reading the bible , hanging out with other christians , jesus says to love your enemies , so acept them for being a person and whom they are and also telling them the truth ..... GOD IS REAL , wether you like it or not............. read Matthew 6/33 Seek yee first the kingdoom of god and all his righteousness and all things will be added to you .
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2009 :  19:16:21  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
First thankyou for replying PhilMac, it is much appreciated you taking the time to do so.

Maybe I am reading the wrong version of the bible? What do you recommend for discussion here? English Standard Version? it seems so from your context, all the other versions speak of those who ask, the greek 'aiteo' is commonly 'ask', but yes you can read it as 'beg', as it could be 'craves' or equally 'desires'. Hence quite confusing when not read in greek, as you lose the context a little in the translation ...

I am not asking your good selfs for anything specifically, nor would I. I was looking at how you reconcile material such as the above only, I do not want for your possessions, they do not concern me. If I lapse in taking sections of the bible in quote form, it is not because I have avoided the context, and if you think I have, of course point it out to me! :)

Does the sections as you quote verse 31 mean therefore that the bible is only in context to other christians? ie: verse 30 only relates to other christians? "plus we can choose whom we give to" oh I see you answered that thanks, I presume you are basically saying that the passages should be interpreted based on how you feel at the time, and are in no way binding. fair enough.

btw I have not said christians are weak, or that they don't want to be treated like anyone else, so please don't misrepresent me on material I have not presented, but you are inferring that I am. Please also I am not demanding an answer to the questions, I was asking for a response, as you can quite clearly see that over 50 people viewed my message, with not one even responding till your good self. There's no need to get agressive at me, and I apologise for obviously offending you by doing so :(

You speak of air, breath, emotions, but all these there are direct tangible evidence for. I may not be able to see them, but I can test, utilize, feel draughts and understand the dynamics of them quite readily. They are not only well documented and observable, testable and able to be explained with concepts that fit with all other sciences, but I can physically deal with them on a personal level as you say.

I am a little confused over your aspect 'the bible says this, so it must be true' with regards jesus for instance 'dying for our sins'. I do not disagree with the fact we are not perfect. A huge amount of things in creation are just not perfect, so much so that it detracts from the idea of an intelligent 'designer' that created us 'in his image'. If god is able to do anything, and knows everything, even before we choose to do it, he knew which way a fly would move before he created existance, knew the beginning and the end and everything that happens along the way as he as always existed before creation, would we not have choice, but fate? He would have known exactly everything that was to occur every step of the way, created evil, and condemned for eternity multitudes. To us we would think we had a choice, but all this was well known before the dice was cast. Effectively the whole of existence is a machine that god put in motion, knowing, and creating, exactly everything that occurs?

Even beside that, what 'choice' do we have, if we are offered in one hand something extremely enticing, and in the other eternal damnation? Is that not bribery of sorts, coupled with a massive threat to force coercion? How is that 'choice'?

To me these issues are just the start of many that confuse me with regard studying the bible. I have also read the koran and the concepts are very similar. Indeed in looking back through many of the religions of the time, much was in common. Most all the egyptian and Mithran religions have pretty much the same concepts, and stories.

I am confused over the concept of 'salvation' in your bible, as you identify it so clearly as from faith. Indeed there are many passages that refer to salvation by faith, and there are also many more that refer to other methods.

For example, here are just a few that are quite explicit over it being 'works' :

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

James 2:17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

James 2:21-25 Was not Abraham our father justified by works? You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rabab the harlot also justified by works? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1 Peter 1:17 The Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work.

Revelation 2:23 I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

The above is just naming a few. As you most probably know there are a multitude of concepts of salvation across christianity, from faith, to believing in jesus, to baptism by water and spirit, to call upon the name of the lord, to follow the commandments etc, and some of them directly contradict what others say eg as compared to the above quite explicit texts, the following is the opposite :

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost.

Romans 3:28 A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works he hath whereof to glory?

etc etc .. I hope you can see why this is so confusing when you actually try reading the bible, without the direction of someone to tell you what to put above other material, or what to ignore, or the various contexts in which most all of it can be taken :\

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 09 Apr 2009 19:17:14
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2009 :  21:40:37  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
davo, may I suggest you start with the gospels & study the way Jesus lived, & move along from there... the answers will come with an open heart & mind; prayer included!

You label yourself as a 'Godless Heathen'...why?




Edited by - Kevin on 09 Apr 2009 21:42:34
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 09 Apr 2009 :  22:40:11  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
hi Kevin,

I have studied the bible, and still doing so, hence my questions, indeed after reading it many times, I have many many questions. There seems to be a huge amount that is open to interpretation, and there is an immense amount that is literally quite terrifying if possibly true, namely in the old testament, which also includes some pretty harsh laws, of which I find various denominations pick and choose as to what is relevant, and what is not.

After reading a little about Potters House, I find it refreshing in the explanations, that the bible is taken literally, and not ad-hoc. Obviously from others posts here not all do that, which I find quite astounding to be able to 'judge' what is seen as the 'word of god', according to human interpretations. You would think a god would be explicit in its text, so not a to cause confusion over some pretty basic principles (the example of being saved is one).

I put godless heathen in my signature, as in looking at life, the universe and everything, I have found there is nothing that points to their being the possibility that a god as presented by any of the major religions could possibly exist. I am open about the concept however, as for all intensive purposes I agree a god may exist against all explanations, but see it as being so extremely unlikely as to be basically non-existent, and as presented as being a petty jealous vindictive god, yet totally 'good', as by many, impossible.

Therefore I wish to reason with the concepts that others find so obvious, to be transparent with my doubt on these points, and the logic that leads me to these conclusions. I assume that any supreme being in the remote chance it existed, would look at that as 'using your god given brain' rather than just accepting the words of others.

To avoid confusion with the members of the site, rather than hide that fact, I am being transparent with it, as I have mentioned in past posts. I have done this so that others are not confused by my questioning, and understand where I am coming from.

I find the search for meaning quite enthralling, and never ending, and look at the universe and say that it is totally amazing, how could anyone want for more? I do not want for more, but my search is based on one of meaning. Yet I find so many searching and searching for something better than what we have, and lost as to why. I lack the ability to just accept what is presented to me as fact, based on a total suspension of reason in favour of faith, thus trying to reason the concepts behind this faith, as it is impossible to let go of glaring issues that the bible, the structures of religion, present.

cheers!

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2009 :  09:32:51  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
davo,

You don't have to be a 'Godless Heathen' to look at "life, the universe & everything" as you put it.

You said "a huge amount of things in creation are just not perfect"...there not perfect because sin entered the universe through Satan; Rev,7:8. Same goes with the Earth when Adam & Eve sinned, and God cursed His creation as a result, & death came into existence. Gen,3:17-19.

Jesus will change all that when he returns...there will be a new heaven ( universe ) & a new Earth.

Sin is the 'curse & old enemy' of all mankind & Gods creation included!

Hope this helps!
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2009 :  13:10:21  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Kevin, that is true you do not need to have no god, to look at life and everything, however I do not see how creating a concept of an even greater complexity is the only way to explain a great complexity. The wonders of our own universe are attributed to a greater wonder doing so, with no foundation. The issue comes about, that if the universe and everything is so complex it needed a creator, then indeed, the same issue would arise placing a god in this position.

The bible was written thousands of years ago by many authors who were recording oral tradition that existed many years before that, it has been edited by men, parts changed and deleted by men, and claiming 'truth' in it is of questionable legitimacy. This is not to say there is no truth contained in it, but simply that any truth must be examined before being accepted. It is a collection of the musings, history, folk lore and fairy tales of a group of stone age starving shepherds in a horrid time, in a horrid place, and in an era of no science. But, taking that into account, I will further look at some of the issues presented in the text, however I find it fascinating that it can just be taken as the word of god, with no proof whatsoever, and quite frustrating when told basically the bible is true, because the bible says it's true. Circular reasoning. If we are to have 'faith' in this regard, we are not having 'faith' in a god, but faith in mans depections from hundreds of years ago, of their concept of god.

Sin came in to the universe through satan? where did satan come from, if everything was made by god? Where does evil come from?

Did Adam and Eve even 'sin'? They ate of the 'tree of knowledge', but it’s not the act that actually created any harm to anyone, it’s God’s seemingly random creation of a rule and his subsequent willingness to subject humanity to hell that causes the harm, not the act itself. The act of doing so did not harm anyone. The harm that befalls humanity as the result of the fall isn’t humanity’s fault, nor does the fruit from the tree cause it. God is the cause of the resulting suffering. God is the one who chooses to inflict (as presumably he could refrain) eternal suffering on humanity.

According to the bible that is .. and not in Genisis, but mainly by claims from Paul. Paul admits that he did not know Jesus during Jesus' lifetime, all of Paul's theology is also based on his own revelations, or visions (Galatians 1:11-12)

This is what god said to adam and eve. There is no mention of a concept of original sin to be passed down to all men in Genisis:

The Lord God said to the serpent, Because you have done this, cursed are you among all animals and among all wild creatures; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life. I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will strike your head, and you will strike his heel.” To the woman he said, I will greatly increase your pangs in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children, yet your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.” And to the man he said, Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten of the tree about which I commanded you, You shall not eat of it, cursed is the ground because of you; in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life; thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you; and you shall eat the plants of the field. By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
(Genesis 3:14-19)

Where is there mention in that of original sin being passed down to all adams decendants? Indeed where is there reference to this sin having to be redeemed by Jesus? These were supposedly the actual words of god.

Why do we have sin because of Adam? Are we guilty because Adam transgressed a law of god, and this 'corruption' was passed onto us heriditarily? It seems such a petty game that a god supreme being would not partake of, to create a situation where no harm is done by man, that gives the god an excuse to condemn for an infinite time those who do not 'find' the words as professed from a text from sheepherders. A god at least would be more even in spreading the concept that it existed, rather than basing most all of it on man passing to man, mostly heriditarily, and condemning children born into families of other faiths to damnation from circumstance. It does not make sense.

thanks again for hearing my quandary put in words, as I examine within myself the concept of a god!

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2009 :  15:37:07  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I am hoping someone will actually approach some of the questions I am dealing with, other than just pointing me at the bible and saying read it to understand :| I have presented a lot of questions above, that it would be nice to have some support and discussion over the holistic views presented. I presume there are some people here that have dealt with these issues themselves, and were not just pointed back at the bible to find those answers alone, as in trying to do so, just raises so many questions due to what appears conflicting accounts (as I suppose you would expect in a text written by many).

Should we just start with the primary issue of how we are saved? This does seem to be a major thing you would think, yet it is not clearly presented in the text.




Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2009 :  16:15:55  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

Lucifer became Satan when he turned on God, and evil grew from that. He ( Lucifer ) had the freedom of choosing right from wrong like you and I do now. We are responsible for our own actions in life, and theres no getting away from that!

Davo, Genesis is quite clear on the fact that Adam & Eves transgression has affected us all, and thats the tragedy of sin...it affects us all, eg, if you have evil inclinations on someone else and carry them through; naturally it affects them for the worse.

Sin sadly is inherent in our make up, and thats the CURSE of SIN... Jesus is the only answer.

Davo, going by what you've been wrting in your posts, you seem to have a resistance attitude to a God!... the universe as complex as it is had to have a designer; theres no other rational answer. If you came across a wrist-watch on the ground, you'd reconise it as something created by an intelligence, and the universe is far more complex than that.

Davo, you ask why God didn't create a situation where no harm is done by man? Davo, God gave us the freedom of CHOICE, thats the answer, and Lucifer had that choice! We have been given the choice to determine our eternal destiny!


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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 10 Apr 2009 :  16:40:52  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo, in your previous post you didn't seem to happy about people pointing you toward the Bible...remember, this is a Christian forum...

Edited by - Kevin on 10 Apr 2009 16:41:32
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  11:34:37  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

Davo,

Lucifer became Satan when he turned on God, and evil grew from that. He ( Lucifer ) had the freedom of choosing right from wrong like you and I do now. We are responsible for our own actions in life, and theres no getting away from that!


As I mentioned previously, if a god made everything, and knows everything, from beginning to end, he must have known full well that creating Lucifer was creating evil.

quote:

Davo, Genesis is quite clear on the fact that Adam & Eves transgression has affected us all, and thats the tragedy of sin...it affects us all, eg, if you have evil inclinations on someone else and carry them through; naturally it affects them for the worse.



That's what I cannot find in Genesis, there is no mention that Adam and Eve's transgression was to be passed on to ourselves. I presented 'gods words', and there is no mention of this in there. Could you point me at the material that says this? I have only found reference in the writings of Paul, who got them from 'visions'.

quote:

Sin sadly is inherent in our make up, and thats the CURSE of SIN... Jesus is the only answer.



morals are inherant in our make up, being social creatures there are clear biological basis for morals, we also see this in other social creatures. The concept of sin is strange, as there is wrong and right, but sin brings with it the idea that their is a deity that defines such things as eating from a tree 'of knowledge', as being sinful. This precludes harm to others. It defines 'wrong' as being something that is against the wishes of a deity, that is defined by men.

quote:

Davo, going by what you've been wrting in your posts, you seem to have a resistance attitude to a God!... the universe as complex as it is had to have a designer; theres no other rational answer. If you came across a wrist-watch on the ground, you'd reconise it as something created by an intelligence, and the universe is far more complex than that.



It is not so much resistant, as I can find no evidence or logic in their being a god, as I have defined. I would love someone to be able to dispel that clearly to me.

I approached this subject in my musings, if we say that the universe and everything is so complex, it needs an even MORE complex concept to have created it, then we are stuck with the fact that this supernatural being is so complex, that it also must have a creator.

This is the leap that I find extraordinary, and looking for the basis of why that leap is made, considering that all logic and evidence does not point to such.

If I find a wrist watch on the ground, I can also find and speak to the creator of it. There is tangible evidence as to how it was made and for what reason. Indeed looking at my watch it has had not one creator, but multiple creators, countless people and gradual processes of apaption and change have led to the LCD watch it is today.

I do not see how the wrist watch analogy in any way confirms the existence of one designer of the universe. You are associating creation with their having to be a creator, and the analogy presented is an example of a myriad of happenings and adaptions that lead to an object. Indeed, this points heavily at the process of evolution, as it cleary explains the ability of complex beings coming from simple, in a gradual process.

One of the big problems with the watch analogy is that biological organisms reproduce and carry all of the information necessary to make copies of themselves, whereas a clock does not. It's one thing to conclude that an object which can't make a copy of itself (because it lacks the reproductive capacity and instructions) must have been created, but it doesn't follow that living, reproducing organisms must have been created. There is however, an extremely good explanation for this in evolution.

quote:

Davo, you ask why God didn't create a situation where no harm is done by man? Davo, God gave us the freedom of CHOICE, thats the answer, and Lucifer had that choice! We have been given the choice to determine our eternal destiny!



I did cover this issue of choice, and the problem that an all-knowing, all powerful being that is the creator of everything presents in this situation. This being would have known everything yet chose to create. It therefore set a machine in motion, with every step of that machine known to it. from beginning to end. For us, yes we would think we had choice, but the 'designer' would have known this, and the 'choice' you would make. How is this true choice?

As mentioned, I am having difficulty coming to grips with the concept of a god, that is needed to put the power in the faith of a book written by man, supposedly divinely inspired by this god, as the concept of a god in the first place, has so many holes, let alone one that is all good, all knowing and all powerful.

quote:

Davo, in your previous post you didn't seem to happy about people pointing you toward the Bible...remember, this is a Christian forum...



Certainly, but you mistake why I am not happy people pointing me at the bible to find the answers to these problems. For I cannot find the answers in it, hence why I am asking others that obviously must have found answers to these issues to have faith that the bible is what it says after looking to it. That it is not just a book by man like the koran, the torah or any other scripture by various beliefs.

To just be pointed back at the bible when asking questions such as how are we saved, and I point out the multitudes of issues I am having even defining that, I am pointed back at reading the bible .. hence, it would be great if there was more discussion over these issues, rather than just be thrown back to a book, I am using as reference to the issues I am having. I am trying to come to grips with both the holistic view of the concept of a deity, and the more focussed view that the deity is the god presented in the bible, above the many others that 'exist' (for want of a word)

thanks again for your patience with me!

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  12:33:11  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,
Seriously, I could reply to everything you've just cited 'above'... Personally with your set views "on a God or no God" ( and mine too ) we'll be ending up going nowhere fast.

Personally I dont think you'll find the answers your looking for here on this forum or anywhere else! You seem set on your beliefs, but I encourage you to do some serious soul-searching and try to get to KNOW GOD!

Evolution! Yep, we could debate that too... just like the Creationists and Evolutionists do!

May I suggest you look up 'Creation Ministries International' on the website for both sides of the evolutionary debate!

Davo, if you have a problem with a belief in a God that has always existed, ( and I believe in such a God ) thats fine! But remember, the human mind cannot totally comprehend the SUPERNATURAL!

Davo, believe me; if you can't find the answers you need on this forum; you wont find them anywhere!

God only divulges what YOU NEED for your eternal salvation...the CHOICE is yours, and nobody can take that away from you except yourself!

All the best...

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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  13:36:02  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

Davo,
Seriously, I could reply to everything you've just cited 'above'... Personally with your set views "on a God or no God" ( and mine too ) we'll be ending up going nowhere fast.



:( why don't you? Is there a reason that you are keeping this to yourself?

My views are quite able to be swayed, indeed I am trying to get to grips with the concept, and approaching issues along the way. As presented there is material I cannot just 'suspend knowledge of' to suddenly believe in a god. I search for answers in all things, if I find I am wrong, I take on the knew knowledge and progress!

quote:

Personally I dont think you'll find the answers your looking for here on this forum or anywhere else! You seem set on your beliefs, but I encourage you to do some serious soul-searching and try to get to KNOW GOD!



Because I raise the issues that I have with the concept of a god, I am a hopeless case? Your asking me to do some serious soul searching and I am doing just that, I've come here trying to do just that. I was hoping people here would be able to give a helping hand to me in regard these issues, but I seem to just be turned away.

quote:

Evolution! Yep, we could debate that too... just like the Creationists and Evolutionists do!

May I suggest you look up 'Creation Ministries International' on the website for both sides of the evolutionary debate!



Actually I have looked thru that site. However I dispute the term 'evolutionists'. That is like someone that knows about gravity as being a 'gravitationist'. Do I have to not believe evolution exists to believe in a god?

The first prime issue I found with the concepts they present is that they do so not understanding some of the basic principles of scientific thought. For example, gravity exists, it's a fact, the Theory of Gravity is the theory over why it exists, and how it works. No one would dispute gravity would they? This is how scientific Theorums work, and how they are defined. Evolution exists, its a fact, we can test and see it at work, from virus to bacterum, from fossil records and breeding of animals. The Theory of Evolution is the scientific explanation as to how it works, it is talking about the mechanism. Evolution is fact, the Theory of Evolution is the accepted idea of Darwin’s, as well as 2 others built up since the discovery of DNA by various scientists, over why evolution is fact. Darwin just started a whole chain of ideas since his initial discovery, that build the Theory of Evolution.

Looking at all the material presented by Creation Ministries, there is nothing but flimsy material, I can't find anything that shows that the Theory of Evolution is false, let alone the fact that evolution does not exist.

quote:

Davo, if you have a problem with a belief in a God that has always existed, ( and I believe in such a God ) thats fine! But remember, the human mind cannot totally comprehend the SUPERNATURAL!



But how does this leap to faith occur then? There must be some basis for it ...

quote:

Davo, believe me; if you can't find the answers you need on this forum; you wont find them anywhere!

God only divulges what YOU NEED for your eternal salvation...the CHOICE is yours, and nobody can take that away from you except yourself!

All the best...



:( I am looking for the answers on this forum, but finding that when I raise the questions I have, I am turned away. Now your saying if I can't find them here, I won't find them anywhere .. kinda confused as there doesn't seem to be any approach to the questions... these questions are something I am sure many others have, you would think it would be the main focus of evangelic practice, approaching fundamental questions of who we are, why we are here, why we should read the bible, and a god.

I have tried breaking it down to one question, how are we saved. And no one has answered that even. I find that astounding, in what is supposed to be a ministry? Or am I mistaken? Was this forum thread placed here just to appear as though your not a closed group, and willing to approach the wider world?

I read on the Potters House website this in the Vision :

quote:

Locally, our desire is to fulfill the ministry of Christ in reaching out to a lost and dying world. We have the promise of peace, liberty and healing through the power of the Lord Jesus Christ! Our message is simple, yet it is the cornerstone of all truth, Jesus Christ is the only hope for man’s salvation. Jesus said, “The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me, because He has anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; he has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovery of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.” Luke 4:18-19

On a global level, we believe the mandate of the church is to preach the Gospel throughout all the world. Jesus said, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.” One man said, “The supreme task of the church is the evangelisation of the world.” In a world filled with wars, racial tensions and economic melt down, the ageless message of God’s love for the nations still stands true today.


yet come here, 'blind', asking questions that are plaguing me and get nothing but people saying there is no hope for me basically , and telling me there is no where else I can get answers at the same time, effectively turning me away. Is this the message of jesus? Is this what he would do? I do not believe so, and here I am telling you this.

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 11 Apr 2009 13:39:16
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  14:17:45  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

No one is turning you away! You seem like a very well read man in your search for answers, but believe me, some of the things that you put in your posts about the Bible are a little naive.

For eg. you referred to some of the writers of the scriptures as " stone aged starving sheperds", really!...can you name them?

Knowledge without FAITH in your Creator will do nothing for you in your search for the truth.

Edited by - Kevin on 11 Apr 2009 14:19:37
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  15:00:48  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

Davo,

No one is turning you away! You seem like a very well read man in your search for answers, but believe me, some of the things that you put in your posts about the Bible are a little naive.

For eg. you referred to some of the writers of the scriptures as " stone aged starving sheperds", really!...can you name them?


If I answer this will you stop just judging me constantly and approach some of the questions presented? ;)

Well that is the period, it was said like that to convey the situation of the times, I admit, my frustration in the definition is definitely not accurate in regard stone age, but it was close. Indeed many folk had only stone, wood etc to use. We are not talking about huge modern societies here, abundance of iron etc but people that lived off a very harsh land as subsistence farmers.

quote:

Knowledge without FAITH in your Creator will do nothing for you in your search for the truth.



So your saying, to have faith, I must have faith?? As mentioned this is kind of circular reasoning in looking for faith ... it's basically saying 'just do it'. To have faith, I must confront some intrinsic elemental hurdles to that.

OK sigh, so I will ask again, as I do not understand why it is such a hard question that no one will even approach in answer, how are we saved? It sounds like such an important element.

*yes I have read a lot of material, covering a huge amount of religious sources in my search for god. I have studied the egyptian, persian, mithran beliefs, judaic, islam, hindu, roman gods to name a few.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  15:14:23  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

You still haven't named those so-called "stone-aged" writers of the scriptures!

OK, I accept that you used the term " stone-age" a little loosely!
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  16:49:10  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Kevin, you also have not approached a lot more questions that myself, I have taken the time to answer in depth those you have put before me, yet you are for no apparent reason totally avoiding the ones I am asking? I'm confused as to the apparent 'wall' I am hitting in getting replies. So excuse me if my frustration showed through with such a loose usage of the term. I hope you can understand. I was hoping that there would be good folk here with a solid understanding of their belief systems and the foundations of their theistic beliefs, that could discuss these topics with me.

Would you like me to go on with the historical aspects of the bible in depth? I'm afraid I may bore you, or raise more questions to detract from the quite simple questions I have put forward, but I will summarise what I can, however it is not easy, nor full in context.

The Old Testament was written in Hebrew and some Aramaic, whereas the New Testament was written in Greek with little Aramaic. The Bible that Paul read was the Septuagint, the Greek version of the Old Testament which was the version most common among the Greek-speaking Jews of the first century. The Bible that Jesus quoted was the Hebrew Old Testament, the version in use among the rabbi's of Palestine in the first century. When we speak of the Old Testament we need to be careful that we specify what we mean, for as everyone knows, the Hebrew Bible is different than the Greek Bible. The first mention of any of the gospels (Mark and Matthew) was by Papias in 130 CE, Irenaeus mentioned Luke in 180 CE, but these are only guesses, before that the works were circulated anonymously, though spoken of, the authors were not mentioned till around these dates. Matthews writing came from the area most exclusively around Palestine, John was the gospel used in Asia Minor. Paul came from Tarsus, (where Mithraism was prevalent and possibly led to a lot of influence from this belief system in his writings and interpretations of the old testament). We see a lot of stories from the new testament being virtual rewrites of some of the stories in the old, but with a twist to modernise it for the audience at the time. Mostly the bible is a collection of tales told in the period, from various unknown authors from various beliefs closely related to early christianity, collated with writings of well known indiduals such as Paul, and decided upon as a 'final' version close to Irenaeus death. Irenaeus denounced as heretics those who had more gospels than he said there really were. It was Irenaeus who claimed there was only four gospels as there were 'only four winds (directions), four corners of the universe and four pillars holding up the sky'. He supported the authenticity of the four gospels by describing Matthew and John as Jesus's own disciples, Mark as a disciple of Peter and John and Luke as disciples of Paul. (you can read more about this in various well known history books, one such that is relatively 'light' reading is http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Testament-Anchor-Reference-Library/dp/0300140169) I can put them in context with the other faiths at the time, the relationships of the writers with those beliefs, thus the possible influences in their interpretations of the old testament (which is 'hacked' a lot for want of a term from the Hebrew Bible and the changes that have occured since then in the bible itself), comparing the various texts of the earliest known works. It would however be a long diatribe, of which I am willing to head down that path if interested? It would be nice however to also receive some reciprocation.

Saying all that, it is easier to approach the discussions from some pretty basic interpretive approaches, so that I can understand such things as 'being saved' and how one defines that.

The basic logical approaches over an all powerful being are again another juxtaposition I am sure have also been approached by learned christians.

I am sure these topics must have been approached in over 2000 years at some stage, or could it be that there needs to be a suspension of questioning such basic concepts to actually have faith?

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  17:06:55  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,
You still haven't answered a simple question!...Who were those " stone-aged writers" as you put it, that helped put the scriptures together?

Davo, what you've justed posted above is nothing new to me... please answer my question!
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  18:07:48  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Excuse me, but you are being hypocritical by asking me to answer when you are not answering any of my questions. I could say the same of you, you have not answered mine, and I asked first ;) But, if you wish to dwell on the subject and divert, so be it. I will go on, since you so eloquently request it of me, while avoiding having the common courtesy to do likewise. I have been extensive in my discussion, I am not sure what you want from me, whilst you seem totally flippant, and have avoided answering, choosing instead to approach the discussion as you are.

The Old Testament comes from the Hebrew Torah, they were translated into Greek in the last few centuries before 'jesus'. It is believed that the Torah was written by Moses, however there is also those that believe it is word of mouth beliefs slowly written into one text, by many (Issues such that Moses could not write about his own death in Deuteronomy have led scholars since the 19th century to believe there was around 4 authors) The Prophets come from the history of the jews, and can be accredited to the authors as presented, however Isiaih has been said to have had a number of authors of the same name over a period of a few hundred years adding to it. The rest is pretty muh writings, poems etc from a lot of varying authors.

The New Testament is generally also attributed to the writers mentioned in my previous post, that you know all about so well. The Epistles being attributed to Paul, but there is much disagreement over what has been added to them over the years, John with Revelations etc, however there is a lot of the writings that are from anonymous sources, trying to support the teachings of various 'apostles' such as Timothy, Titus, Hebrews, James etc ..

If you know this, why are you asking me, and ignoring my questions? I'm finding it hard to put much effort into it for you, as you just seem to be trying to detract from my questions, and I do not understand why.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  21:31:29  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

There you go again! please answer my question and back up the statement you made in your post about " these stone-age writers of scripture"...can you name them? where are they in the scriptures?

Davo, I've tried to answer a # of your questions... (if you'll just read over our posts)!!!

Please dont make statements YOU CANT BACK-UP!






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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  22:03:45  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I have answered your question in my last two posts. I listed names etc etc so you cant say I haven't backed up explaining who I was talking about, but I was quite explicit in explaining just exactly who I was talking about, and your saying I haven't?

Odd.

You have not answered the simple question I put forward, on how we are saved. This seems an important question, and one you seem to be obviously avoiding, and I do not understand. You would think it would be fundamental to your belief.

I must also point out that all caps is considered yelling on the internet, and I don't understand why you are yelling at me, about explaining what I was saying, when I did quite clearly.

Is this the way christians deal with issues of faith? To be uncivil? At least talk to me with some modicum of decency. I afford you that at least, and I would assume if I asked the same of jesus there would be tolerance and understanding, not accusations and judgment on me for something I have clearly provided, and pointing you at again.


Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 11 Apr 2009 22:04:15
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  22:31:19  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

Here's what you wrote WORD FOR WORD refering to these contributers of the scriptures...' stone-age starving shepherds in a horrid time, in a horrid place, and in an era of no science'




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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  22:36:46  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo,

I wasn't yelling my friend, and not all caps are considered yelling!

If you've named these shepherds...could you repeat them; I don't recall seeing their names!
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  22:40:46  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Yes, and I apologised for stating stone age, as it as an incorrect term and admitted it was said as I was frustrated, it whole line was meant to convey the situation at the time, as I have previously explained, these were hard times, with salt of the earth type people, living off the land.

What more do you want from me but an apology? I have tried fulfilling your request in explaining those I was talking about, yet you have not even approached my simple question.

Is there someone with more patience and tolerance that I could discuss these topics with viewing? I do not wish to have this thread lapse into accusations and attacks on people, I am slightly off put by the reaction I am getting here, and do not wish to tar all with the brush of one person unable to do much more than accuse. I am sure there are tolerant and understanding people amongst you.

thanks again for your patience with me

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 11 Apr 2009 :  22:44:48  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kevin

Davo,

I wasn't yelling my friend, and not all caps are considered yelling!



ahh my apologies for miscontruing your reply Kevin!

quote:

If you've named these shepherds...could you repeat them; I don't recall seeing their names!



Ahh I think I see what you are getting at, my speaking of sheperds. As was mentioned this was said to convey the harsh period of the time, it was an important symbol used in the bible, indeed in John 10:11, Jesus spoke of himself, “I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.”

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2009 :  11:54:03  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Is it too much to ask how are we saved?

It seems like a rather important question, I am just trying to get an answer to one question as a start, and was hoping that someone could help me with this one.

If I am overstepping some hidden boundaries please signal somehow to me, I am totally lost as to why my simple question, the first of many, is being totally avoided. Indeed small inconsequential comments such as 'stone age' (when to be accurate it was the bronze age) are held up for ridicule, but at the same time are just an expression of my frustration with the lack of support in regard to what is fundamental questions regarding belief.

thanks again for your time and replies in advance!

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 14 Apr 2009 :  22:15:54  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Greetings, again good folk, rather than dwell on the issue of no response to my simple question however much I find that quite disheartening, my quest continues, and I will not let a setback such as this hold me back from trying to achieve faith, something so easy for so many, yet I am having so much difficulty attaining.

I was wondering if someone could be so kind as to explain what I am missing in my interpretation of 2 verses I have come across in my recent studies, what did actually happen to Judas? Or am I reading these two verses incorrectly? I have used the ESV version of the bible as one good fellow pointed out in the format that he posted verses .. is that correct? I have tried reading piece by piece in the greek as well to try and interpret from as close the original I can, and these verses are also in aramaic, however I am not familiar with the dialect.

Thanks for your help, I am getting lost as to how to interpret this, I have worked through your handy information guide contained in one of the articles on the site, but it does not help. I am sure it is just a matter of interpretation, however I am missing exactly how to do that ...

Matthew 27:3-8

3 Then when Judas, his betrayer, saw that Jesus was condemned, he changed his mind and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders,
4 saying, "I have sinned by betraying innocent blood." They said, "What is that to us? See to it yourself."
5 And throwing down the pieces of silver into the temple, he departed, and he went and hanged himself.
6 But the chief priests, taking the pieces of silver, said, "It is not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is blood money."
7 So they took counsel and bought with them the potter’s field as a burial place for strangers.
8 Therefore that field has been called the Field of Blood to this day.

Acts 1:15-19

15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said,
16 Brothers, the Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke beforehand by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus.
17 For he was numbered among us and was allotted his share in this ministry."
18 (Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness, and falling headlong he burst open in the middle and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it became known to all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, so that the field was called in their own language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.)

Godless Heathen
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PhilMac
Sub Lieutenant

Australia
10 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2009 :  16:17:30  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo , you want to be saved ...correct , okay , very plain and simple , go to a church on sunday , you live in victoria , well the best church i could recommend is a potters house christian centre church , there are several down there , services start around 10am 10:30 , go and listen to the preacher and at the end of the service the preacher will give an altar call , asking anyone if they want to be "saved" when you hear that call , put your hand up , and the preacher will acknowledge you and then soon after ask you to do 1 more thing and that is go down the front where he is standing and someone will speak to you and lead you through a prayer , and you mean what you say with all your heart , something will happen inside you , it will be the holy spirit touching your heart. Thats what kev and thousands of others have done .

You know many people cry out to god , and god listens and guess what , he sends someone or you receive a track / piece of paper inviting you to a concert / chhurch , then Go . Most people after they cry out forget their heart felt prayer and tell the christian to get lost and or tear up the paper .... BUT god doesnt forget .
So Dave go along to one of these churches. By the way faith comes by hearing , hearing the word of god ...... meaning going to church to hear the man of god preach . See , god will give you the answers but you got to ask him into your heart , for real man, thats what revelation is , as you read the bible (as a christian things stand out to you ). Dave the answers are all there you just have to ask jesus into your heart , acknowledge he died for you and your sins Even if you dont understand , mate I dont understand stacks of stuff in the bible but i know god loves me more than anyone else could . Bible says "no greater love for a man to lay down his life for another" , Dave jesus did that for you .

You may feel uncomfortable , thats conviction , not a bad wicked thing , just gods knocking on your heart ......

Youve sent so much stuff i cant process it that fast let alone understand allot of it but , this what i have just typed is the Answer all you gotta do is get up sunday morning and go , actually most PH churches have a wednesday night service too 19:30.... bless you
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 15 Apr 2009 :  19:25:49  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
PhilMac, I thankyou for your heart felt reply. I know that in every human there is inherant good, some just do not seek it within themselves, and indeed, some thrive on power, the ultimate corruptor, that brings evil with it.

PhilMac, I know you are a good man, and that is deep within you and not from a book. I know you are not telling me this for any other reason than that inherant good, with or without your god.

Please do not take what I am saying here as being negative, though it may come across as such. I am transparently sharing my innermost self in my search for truth. I am strong in myself, and know my morals come from inherantly 'me', not elsewhere. I am happy ;)

I think however my 'issue' is far deeper than you realise, that unlike many others I have spoken too that have 'faith', I have looked at a more philosophical view rather than the need for answers to my life by suspension of the reason that I have presented to yourselves. It is this core reason that needs to be answered in kind, to find the faith your good selfs describe as so necessary to the human condition. My need is based on basic philosophical questions, that many with faith do not seem to even approach. Reading the articles presented on the forum in the articles section, I was hoping their would be learned christians here that could approach discussion with me on these issues. That could convince me that a god could actually exist, and also point me at the fact that god would be the christian god, above all the many others.

I was hoping that those that are more educated in the foundations of your religion would answer, and not leave good folk like yourself in the position of having to face such questions alone. It does appear that to be able to justify to people the concepts in the bible, one has to be highly educated in the ways of transferring justifications of the contradictions.

I understand quite well my position, as I am sure you have an inkling of the complexity. I cannot just ask for understanding of faith and gain it, surmounting information I cannot hide to myself. I would be going through the motions to get a tick box and a stamp marked 'saved'. This I do not believe is what any god if it existed would wish. I need to confront directly the questions I have to understand the concept of faith.

I live in a rural area of Victoria, there are 'organised religion' groups close by but have found the same issue, that I am asked to suspend these questions and just believe, and 'have faith'. The number of them I have approached, seem to feed both 'spiritually' and monetarily on the unfortunate, needy and those that do not question basics, thus find it impossible to give me answers that I need. For them, there is easier prey for their tax free pyramid schemes than one that has thought over the simple paradox presented by an omnipient, omniscient being. I have had a priest to dinner from one of those 'organised churches', yet needless to say, they were uncomfortable and unable to approach the questions I present with any conviction other than to brush them aside, let alone be able to refute them to any degree. Their methods were to bolster their argument, stand behind their own faith with unrealistic replies. It was .. awkward, and sad to see someone in such a position falling back to defending their institution, only to themselves.

I do not wish that upon your good self, standing forward as you are in humanistic support, I can only hope that you find peace within yourself.

Alas, it looks that learned folk may not answer, as their are no answers. That they cannot confront the paradox of a god that I put forward openly, nor wish too. That davo may just go away. That by presenting these issues I am evil, however much I follow the path of truth, which is the basis of my search.

I am starting to believe that faith relies on not 'eating from the tree of knowledge', so that one can suspend these basic concepts and believe. That it replaces the inherant goodness in us all with an imaginary concept outside of us, a way to shore up ourselves indeed, but not build upon our core.

I wish I was wrong.

Godless Heathen

Edited by - davo on 15 Apr 2009 19:28:20
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giantcfr1
Midshipman

Australia
3 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2009 :  19:35:47  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Hi Davo - I think you raise some very valid points that are worthy of consideration. Some people are drawn to God by supernatural/ spiritual experiences and faith. They then begin to read to the Bible and understand various scriptures by revelation from God. Others like yourself apply logic and reason for which you must find confirmation. Jesus actually commissions us to love the Lord with all of our heart soul strength and MIND. In my experience different people discover this in different orders. Some are drawn becuase of a soul connection if you'd like to call it that, some understand in their heart and some understand in their mind. You obviously are a person who needs to understand with your mind and that is quite valid. I do not regard any of your posts as naieve - but i respect the dignity of your longing to find reason and logic in your search for the truth. I would like to converse with you a little more. I would like to approach this by discussing each of your points in turn. In order to do this it will be time consuming and i am a slow typist and have a number of reports to complete for my job. If you are still interested then i would like to slowly address things bit by bit. I will try to answer as much as i can but i am by no means a genius.

God Bless

Edited by - giantcfr1 on 28 Apr 2009 19:38:29
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2009 :  19:40:31  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Not a problem giantcfr1, thanks for responding.

None of us are a genius ;) I suspect anyway :)take your time, I am in no rush, and looking forward to reasoned responses! thankyou!! :)

Godless Heathen
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giantcfr1
Midshipman

Australia
3 Posts

Posted - 28 Apr 2009 :  22:33:34  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
sounds good mate, I will be away on a camp for the rest of the week with no internet access so will get back to when i can. I think I can at least give you some ideas to ponder over and it would be interesting to hear your reply.
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giantcfr1
Midshipman

Australia
3 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2009 :  19:32:07  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Davo, just in reply to your first point i think perhaps there is a couple of things to note. I believe you are asking perhaps by what crtieria and in what framework Christians interpret the Bible. I think there are a number of ways that Biblical study can be approached. First observe the following scripture:

2 Timothy 3:14-17 (New International Version)
14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.[/i]

Basically I believe that the above scripture outlines a number of ways that we should approach interpreting the Bible.

1)Continue in what you have learned .... from who you learned. If you examine the cultural context of the New Testamwnt you will understand that the central teachings of the Jewish Old Testament were passed on from a Rabbi to his students. His job was to teach these scriptures and how to interpret them. He would select a particularly promising student to become his main "disciple" if you like, while the others would go and get other various trades. If you apply this to Bible study i believe it refers to the following:
- Teaching and advice from a pastor/ minister, theologian or well studied member of the church community
- reading various commentaries and books from Christian authors - particularly those with a good solid theological background
- self study - this can be done in various ways. Learning ancient Greek and Hebrew helps you to interpret the Bible in its original sense, but if you do not know these you can use a concordance and Greek/ Hebrew Lexicaon to give you a background to the language and meanings. Also examining the background and historical contexts helps to add to an your understanding of a particular passage. For example. Some Christians believe that drinking is not an acceptable practise for a Christian. If you research the Greek word used for wine in the "water into wine miracle", you will see that it can refer to both fermented and unfermented wine. If you read historical commentaries on the wine making procedures (such as Pliny) you can reconcile the fact that this was more likely "sweet wine" than unfermented wine. There is actually a whole lot of study in that one topic - but it was just meant to be short example.
- Discussion in fellowship with other Christians - I think it is a good practise to hear differing opinions of scriptures and even be challenged on your own understanding of these as this tends to make you examine what you believe and why you believe it.

2) Personal revelation. First of all the Bible is the "word of God" it is God Breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness. The Bible was originally "breathed" to men by God so there was a degree of spiritual revelation. John 14:26 says "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." So God uses the Holy Spirit to help each person come to a personal revelation about various scriptures and aspects of Christianity.

So to summarise, God uses the Holy Spirit, along with our own personal study, and direction from Theologians/ ministers.

We need to understand that the Bible is a varied and extremely beautiful piece of Literature. It is made up of History, Biography, Poetry, Prophecy, revelation, personal reflection, recount, exposition and various other literary elements. It may seem complex - but remember that it also contextual. Ancient cultures would have readily understood the various motifs, allegories, subtleties and meanings, although sometimes the disciples seemes to have no idea what Jesus was referring to.

When approaching the text of the Bible (Biblical criticism) many Theologians divide this study into a few Categories - Textual criticism, Historical criticism, Literary criticism, source criticism, form criticism and redaction criticism. This allows them to understand the various structures of the Bible and helps to give a background to interpreting the text.

In terms of your question, knowing the various parts of the Bible e.g. Poetic texts would indicate that there are expressive,emotive, dramatic and metaphorical devices employed for the purposes of revealing deeper truths as opposed to literal interpretation.

I don't have any more time to post now - but i will try to address your question on the scripture you posted when i post next time. I hope this has at leats been a little helpful

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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 05 May 2009 :  20:46:20  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I am confused, especially after speaking to rodgertutt, regarding how wildly differently interpretation is done. It seems odd that a supreme being would have put in place a book, so open to so many interpretations, that has given so much pain to so many over history.

Thanks for your response, I very much appreciate it, and I am trying to digest it.

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 07 May 2009 :  01:31:24  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
Mark 3:29 "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Does this mean, if someone says something bad about the holy spirit, they are lost with no recourse? What is blasphemy defined as? Does this mean if someone states they deny the holy spirit, they are forever damned?

Godless Heathen
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2009 :  10:53:58  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
looking at Mark 3:29, I would have to say the concepts of rodgertutt and universalism could not be right, there are quite a number of sections of the bible that talk about unforgivable sin.

Godless Heathen
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Kevin
Commander

Australia
115 Posts

Posted - 15 May 2009 :  20:52:08  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by davo

Mark 3:29 "Whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."

Does this mean, if someone says something bad about the holy spirit, they are lost with no recourse? What is blasphemy defined as? Does this mean if someone states they deny the holy spirit, they are forever damned?

To me, blasphemy against The Holy Spirit is a "state" that a particular person is in because they are denying the only avenue that God can reach them. While they're in this state of mind and choose to continue as such till the day they die, they are eternally damned.

If such a person can come to their senses and see the folly of this denial of The Holy Spirit, and turn to God...I can't see any reason for God turning them away.

Maybe I could have worded this a little better, and would welcome any other feed-back from others on this forum.
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 17 May 2009 :  14:45:16  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I dunno seems pretty clear cut to me. That may be how you feel about blasphemy, but the more I read in the bible it speaks quite definitely of NEVER being forgiven for this sin :

Matthew 12:30-32: "Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. And so I tell you, people will be forgiven every sin and blasphemy. But the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

Luke 12:8-10: "I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."


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rosie
Midshipman

7 Posts

Posted - 23 May 2009 :  00:21:36  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
I have been following your posts Davo and you ask some really pertinent questions. There is a guy in Frankston that may be able to answer your questions, he Pastors the Cornerstone Gospel Church, he is a bible scholar and is extremely knowledgeable (and very approachable) about many subjects/topics you are talking about. The church has a website, just look it up and you can email him from there.
Cheers
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davo
Commander

110 Posts

Posted - 25 May 2009 :  09:43:04  Show Profile  Email Poster  Reply with Quote
thanks rosie! much appreciated :)

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